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JSON-LD CG/WG

Minutes for 2022-06-22

Present
Gregg Kellogg, Philippe Le Hégaret, David I. Lehn, Ted Thibodeau Jr., Pierre-Antoine Champin, Orie Steel, Niklas Lindström, Melinda Minch, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Chris Mungall
Chair(s)
Gregg Kellogg
Scribe(s)
Orie Steel, Gregg Kellogg, Pierre-Antoine Champin
Agenda
https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/043b29e7-f596-41d3-9c86-3b894bdb1487
Topics
  1. Announcements and Introductions
  2. YAML-LD
  3. JSON-LD-star
  4. JSON-LD Spec updates
  5. Schedule next call
Resolutions
  1. Use ReSpec for spec and UCR documents.
  2. go to every other week schedule in this timeslot, with the next meeting being July 6
Orie Steel is scribing.

Topic: Announcements and Introductions

Gregg Kellogg: The CG as been anointed to make updated to specs / publish new ones... by the JSON-LD WG.
... to start off, we have had a lot of interest in YAML-LD lately.
Gregg Kellogg: I'm Editor of JSON-LD 1.0 / 1.1, I've worked in CGs as well.
Niklas Lindström: I was also in the WG / co-author JSON-LD 1.0... I work a the national library of sweden, and we use jsonld
... i've been interested in RDF * / JSON-lD *
Anatoly Scherbakov: I work at datafold, i'm a software developer, interested in semantic data... I'm building an open source project that works on knowledge graphs
... I first learned of these 10 years ago, but only now I have a project to work on them, excited to be here.
DaveLehn: I work at Digital Bazaar, we've used JSON-LD for some time, current maintainer of jsonld.js... want to keep pushing the tech forward.
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: I'm with OpenLink Software, I'm in all W3C groups.
Philippe Le Hégaret: I'm the team contact for W3C for the JSON-LD WG.
Roberto Polli: I work for video <inaudible> department of italy, interested in web apis.... interested in standardization... I'm also interested in standardizing... <inaudible>
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I joined the W3C Team, I've helped shepherd the RDF WG /RDF *... interested in JSON-LD... and interested in augmenting it to cover RDF*
Gregg Kellogg is scribing.
Melinda Minch: I'm based in BC, CA, I work on the World Data System, international technology office, I was given a task to build federated search for arctic research data... I'm interested in research dataset markup.
Orie Steel: I'm Orie Steel, CTO and founder of transumte. I'm an other of the DID spec and work with Verifiable Credentials.
... We apply JSON-LD DIDs for securing global trade documents for import/export.
... I'm interested in YAML-LD and YAML as a more human readable way of working with Linked Data.
Gregg Kellogg: To repeat for those who are not present yet, we are using IRC
... we use IRC for voting / recording minutes, etc.
Roberto Polli: Hi folks!
... You can use a native IRC client if you like.
Gregg Kellogg: We have a F2F tentative in Vancouver
Melinda Minch: Like this? `@present+ Melinda Minch`
... see the calendar

Topic: YAML-LD

Gregg Kellogg: In the WG, we used the github projects feature to manage the open issues
... we have created a number of issues
... focusing first on use cases
... eventually we will look at spec / testing
... there is one issue regarding the spec and media types
... the purpose of working issues, is to create use case documents or working towards a specification
... typically we use pull requests, which means we will need to identify editors for each document managed in github
... we are seeking editors
... there is work required to transform use cases from issues
... for example "compatibility with existing libraries"
... "as a developer I would like to use existing libraries so that work developing is easier...etc"
... we use "ReSpec" to document specs / use cases as HTML.
... we have a PR preview tool which helps visualizes the changes made
... this allows for the community to review changes and make constructive comments
Orie Steel: To ease collaboration, it would be great to use bikeshed [scribe assist by Roberto Polli]
... rather than trying to do issue review in this meeting, I would like to move on to other issues
Roberto Polli: For building the document out of markdown
... any questions or comments before we move on/
Roberto Polli: We will not discussion issues?
Gregg Kellogg: I want to cover the agenda before getting to specific issues
... and establish a regular call schedule
... we may want to create different calls to cover other items
Niklas Lindström: +1 For different calls for different topics
... for example JSON-LD *
... there are also specification errata which needs to be addressed
... the last thing I want to do is schedule our next call, and agree to recurring meetings
Pierre: I wanted to comment on bikeshed vs respec
... from what I know, bikeshed is a markdown version of respec
... if folks want to use markdown, i think respec may support it now
Roberto Polli: Whatever you prefer, as long as it's text :)
Gregg Kellogg is scribing.
Orie Steel: I've used both, and I think bikeshed works well.
... It can be hard to use if it's not set up properly, and there's some additional chances for errors or risks.
... I think that bikeshed is worth the lift if the advanced featuers warrant.
Gregg Kellogg: Group has always used ReSpec... we have plugins / tools in ReSpec
... AFAIK, every other RDF group has used ReSpec
... my guess is that using ReSpec is probably an easier entry point
PROPOSAL: Use ReSpec for spec and UCR documents.
Orie Steel: +1
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +1
Anatoly Scherbakov: +1
Philippe Le Hégaret: 0
Melinda Minch: 0
Niklas Lindström: +0 (No strong opinion)
Roberto Polli: Can respec use .md ?
Chris Mungall: Sorry i joined late, should I be looking at something?
David I. Lehn: +1, But i had never heard of bikeshed until just now, so not an informed vote
Roberto Polli: I just want to avoid diffing .xml docs
Roberto Polli: On PRs
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +0
Gregg Kellogg: Ok so, last call for votes
RESOLUTION: Use ReSpec for spec and UCR documents.
... we will use respec
... any other discussion regarding YAML-LD ?

Topic: JSON-LD-star

... its fairly mature spec
... see the open issues, we hope to move it to a WG
Pierre: RDF-star is an extension of syntax and semantics to use triples as the subject or object of other triples
... this extension requires concrete syntax extensions, its been done for turtle... doing this for JSON-LD would cover this same update for JSON-LD
Eric Korb: Is there a playground for JSON-LD star
Gregg Kellogg: I think there is only 1 implementation of JSON-LD start so far
Gregg Kellogg: In the ruby version there is an option to pickup jsonld
... and serialize as JSON-LD *
Niklas Lindström: I wanted to share a tool ^ right now its a simple demo of parse & serialize, but it has some visualization
... I have added turtle-start, trig-star and jsonld-star
... you can use the tool to explore the formats
... its a pseudo playgroun
Eric Korb: The bottom right corner ha a '<<' button which brings up an editor
Gregg Kellogg: Would you consider a PR to the JSON-LD repo to include a link?
Niklas Lindström: I will look into that

Topic: JSON-LD Spec updates

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Gregg Kellogg: There are a number of proposed updates to JSON-LD spec and Errata
... this is important work for the group to get too
Pierre-Antoine Champin is scribing.
... pchampin and I have been following these issues
... plh, any info about the process to apply the errata
Philippe Le Hégaret: The process was updated in Sep 2020, unfortunately, this was after JSON-LD was published
... so the current JSON-LD Rec can not take advantage of the new process
... because a recommendation have to "opt in" to the new process, and JSON-LD could not.
... The probability of the process evolving to make this retroactive is very low.
Gregg Kellogg: So when the group is ready to address this modification,
... we will need to dedicate some time to dive into the new process.

Topic: Schedule next call

Gregg Kellogg: I would propose that the group continues to use this timeslot, on a every-other-week basis
... (with some exceptions during summer)
... every other week may not be enough in the future, but we can start with that.
PROPOSAL: go to every other week schedule in this timeslot, with the next meeting being July 6
Niklas Lindström: +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Pierre-Antoine Champin: <Pchampin> +1
David I. Lehn: +1
Philippe Le Hégaret: 0
Anatoly Scherbakov: +1
Melinda Minch: 0
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: +0
RESOLUTION: go to every other week schedule in this timeslot, with the next meeting being July 6
Philippe Le Hégaret: Will not be able to attend these calls on a regular basis,
... but let me know if you need me.
Gregg Kellogg: Ivan also said that he would try to attend, when possible.
Ted Thibodeau Jr.: Can we put these calls in the JSON-LD WG/CG calendar?
Gregg Kellogg: Will do (already the case for this call)
... the minutes will also be included in the calendar, and validated during the next meeting
Gregg Kellogg: Anyone having an issue they want to start with?
Issue json-ld/yaml-ld#19
https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/issues/19 -> Issue 19 Polyglot Modeling (VladimirAlexiev) UCR
Eric Prud'hommeaux: How are people supposed to add UCRs?
Gregg Kellogg: There is an issue template for UCRs in the https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld repo
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Eric Prud'hommeaux: (Meta Q to see if we're on the same page)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do people want to exceed JSON expressivity, or just use YAML as a nicer syntax for JSON?
Yaml-ld#8
https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/issues/8 -> Issue 8 Round-trip safe json-ld -> yaml-ld -> json-ld (ioggstream) UCR
Gregg Kellogg: I think there is an issue about that
... (not the one above...)
...s/see/see/
Yaml-ld#17
https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/issues/17 -> Issue 17 YAML-LD datatypes (and tags for datatypes) (VladimirAlexiev) UCR
undefined
Orie Steel: +1 To JSON-LD and YAML-LD having a similar or identical set of capabilities
Orie Steel: +1 To exploring both the "identical" and the "enhanced" paths.. at least initially
Sorry I am talking now
I can take back over scribing ir you like
Roberto Polli: We can start with a minimal set of feature
... allowing to serialize only roundtrippable data (except for comments)
... once we have it, we can consider expanding it
... for example, leveraging YAML anchors in order to reuse JSON bits in several places
... (as long as they are not creating cycles)
... also, it is important to define a media-type
Melinda Minch: Is it a goal to make these formats round-trippable between each other, or anything like that?
Roberto Polli: Q- [scribe assist by Roberto Polli]
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Interestingly, YAML might no offer much referencing advantage (`&node` and `*node`) over JSON-LD 'cause it already had refs
Orie Steel: Roundtripping is important for interoperability
Eric Prud'hommeaux: But not with the notion of copying data, more with re-using nodes
... it is exciting to explore other features, but in a 2nd time
Niklas Lindström: Worried about the complexity we might open up
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Refs and *node are different. One happens at json-ld level, the other one at seralization level. [scribe assist by Roberto Polli]
Anatoly Scherbakov: I am uncertain how referencing can help; JSON-LD can assign an `@id` to a node, which can be used multiple times all over the document. Do we have to encourage a duplicate feature?
... my own colleagues already have problem with the RDF part of JSON-LD, they merely see JSON
Gregg Kellogg: Thanks everyone, we have a lot to chew on
... I encourage you to continue the discussion in the issues
... From this discussion, I think we will start with a simple profile.
Thanks all!
Anatoly Scherbakov: Thank you all very much!
Melinda Minch: Thanks everyone, nice to meet you all
Rssagent, bye
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